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User talk:Hhhippo/BuildArchive/:R/N Touch Ranger/Archive 2
__TOC__ On SS To you, not your teammates remember! Skuld 02:22, 29 May 2006 (CDT) :Of course. I still don't consider it a direct counter, however. --Bishop (rap| ) 02:24, 29 May 2006 (CDT) ::It really isn't unless you're using a variant with sacrifice skills, or have a bunch of warriors/assassins in your team. The health returned per usage of the Vampiric skills is greater than even a 16 Curses Spiteful Spirit. - Greven 02:44, 29 May 2006 (CDT) :::But it does severly limit the self sustainability of the character, which is what makes it so annoying. If it even reduces the net health gain to 10-20 or so life per vamp touch, it will make a huge difference in the characters survival. With that amount of reduced healing, he can't tank against peoples damage. What it won't do though, is reduce the damage output this character has. To do that I would suggest the already mentioned diversion. Since touch rangers are almost always spamming, he won't usually even see it hit him. He'll just suddenly have an enourmous recharge time on the skill. Plus Diversion is really a counter to any build, melee, ranger, or caster, diversion can do quite a number on any of them ... although really the same could almost be said of SS =/ Verde 03:12, 29 May 2006 (CDT) ::::It hinders, but is not a counter. Of course, my variant would have even less of a problem with SS due to using Troll Unguent in the mix (and kiters, etc..) - Greven 03:29, 29 May 2006 (CDT) Diversion, Wither/Malaise/Panic (used this on a group of 3 touchers after me. it's amazing.) will absolutely own them. Water Trident will own them. Ward Against Foes. Gale/Gust. Crippling Shot/Apply Poison spam. just to name a few counters. they're really not that big of a threat. :: ^ What the... A cripshot can own a ranger without being designed for it. That is, as long as those wammos around you don't decide to walk up to the touch ranger and let it feast on them. Cripshot can't be evaded/blocked, and interrupts are a charm when whirling's down. Distracting shot, in particular, can lower the touch's dps and hps by 50%. Also, this is happening while the cripshot is poisoning everyone else in the field... Silk Weaker 09:41, 10 August 2006 (CDT) :::My Cripshot eats Touchies at will. LightningHell 21:49, 4 September 2006 (CDT) Bunny biters Never heard that used.. — Skuld 09:18, 10 June 2006 (CDT) :You mean.. what? Ferocious as energy management? Silk Weaker 09:37, 10 August 2006 (CDT) Valid and Viable? I would like to challenge the fact that this build is "valid". The issue with expertise has not been straightned out yet, and there is a large number of people who think that it's bug abuse. The box should be removed until Anet corrects whatever the problem may be, be it a bug or a typographical problem in the description of expertise. 207.81.213.37 07:22, 15 June 2006 (CDT) :The mechanics of Expertise have existed, been know and worked as they do through many patches. It is quite obvious that ANet does not intend to change how it works, nor do they consider it balance-breaking. See above for the previous (long) discussion on the issue. As with so many other things on the List of skill anomalies, the skill wordings and the exact mechanics are often not the same. Calling builds "invalid" because of this would be like saying all the skills on that list are "unethical" or "wrong" to use, which is obviously balogney. -- Bishop rap| ] 07:39, 15 June 2006 (CDT) ::Additionally, the legitimacy of Expertise notwithstanding, the purpose of this section has always been to document popular builds as well as novel ones. If it actually works in the game and is popular in the metagame, we can't not explain it. We had a thing up for IWAY back when IWAY was around, and IWAY was definitely cheese, after all. — 130.58 (talk) (08:30, 15 June 2006 (CDT)) :::I have no gripe about the build being here, it exists and until anet does something it's going to stay. Regardless it should not be considered valid until such a time when expertise has the description changed or they change how expertise works. I don't want to start a debate about why expertise is broken, or why the description dosn't match what it actually does (to a degree). By all means keep all the information up here, it's a wiki after all. But I hardly think we are qualified to make the assumption that this build is valid, not in it's current state. I'm not going to press the issue anymore mind you, do as you see fit from here on in, but I'd just like to point out what I feel is an error, nothing more. 207.81.213.37 17:35, 15 June 2006 (CDT) :Bring it up on one of the elite or official fansites. I've seen several threads on this on guildwarsguru, tgh and gwonline. You may want to read the latest issue of The Scribe in the recent news post. Arena Net were extolling the virtues of touch rangers. Either a nerf is imminent, or touch rangers were always meant to work. — Stabber ✍ 18:17, 15 June 2006 (CDT) ::Anet knowws about this as they posted about it in the Scribe. Still they did not fix anything in the update. If it were a bug they had fixed it. If it is merely an unbalance then it will be updated in a skill update. -- 02:04, 16 June 2006 (CDT) This discussion is now settled. ANet has changed the wording of the Expertise ability to clearly state that it affects all non-spell skills. Cheesy as it may be (and it is, I hate it now that I'm tired of doing it myself ;)), this usage is intended and valid. -- Bishop rap| ] 00:20, 28 July 2006 (CDT) PvE variant As it was 'heavily affected by Gems build' I want to comment on some aspects of this one. If you replace Vampiric Bite with Touch of Agony you will not be able to heal yourself enough late game, especially if you want to sacrifice life using Offering of Blood. Without any energy management skill this build doesn't survive in longer battles. If you want to change OoB for another elite, I could suggest Soul Leech as one possibility. -- 09:17, 15 June 2006 (CDT) I have a variant i really like. Its how ive done it for ages, (when factions came i changed touch o agony for vamp bite of course), and icve found that this one pwns all. 1.Whirling Defense 2.Vamp Touch 3.Vamp Bite 4.Plague Touch 5.Vamp Gaze 6.Offering of Blood 7.Life Siphon 8.Ressurection Signet When i first charge into battle, i cast life siphon and vamp gaze on target. Then i use OoB, and spam the vamp touches and bites. Whirl def for heavy tank or range att, siphon whenever im not under pressure, and at end when the kiters come out to play, life siphon and vamp gaze own. And if they try to get the hex off, it just slows em down and i cast again. This is my humble build. btw: the ranged life-steal stuff makes up for no run skills. If they are running super fast, i just wait for them to come around. Easy peasy. —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 205.188.116.10 (talk • ) 16:29, 27 June 2006 CET. : For my part I agree with you. Your build has a higher regeneration rate as the current PvE variant and the fact that it lacks a speed buff is quite negligible. ~ Nilles (chat) 11:57, 27 June 2006 (CDT) when i was using my build (the one above that was un signed) i was at maybe 50 health, last one alive, no rez sig, and other team had a tank with full health and full FoW armor. It was so cool when i danced on his corpse, myself being at full health. Teeheehee. Thats my favorite build of all. If anyone has another Touch ranger, i've been long to doheroes ascent wit 6 touchers, a heal monk, and a protter. My touch ranger is Grenths Sword. wootwoot! Discussion about nerfing If there was another place to talk about this, it would be the Talk:Expertise page. I agree that Touch Rangers should be modified somewhat, to make counters more accessible. As I noted there, I like the idea of creating a "touch" class for touch skills, although I think it should remain a subcategory of skills and/or attacks. In theory, it would be affected by attack modifying effects - i.e. Blind, Empathy, Faintheartedness, etc. Perhaps only certain ones (like block/evade being useless versus them, or being unable to miss.) Seeing as how these skills are imitating attacks anyhow, I think it fits. This would accomplish several things: 1) There would be the additional counters beyond Diversion, snaring and kiting. 2) Necromancers would continue to have the utility of non-spell skills. 3) The instinctual counters would be effective. 4) Touch Rangers would actually use Plague Touch. 5) Touch Rangers would become a normal part of the metagame.--Ender A 10:43, 16 August 2006 (CDT) :Do you suggest that touch skills wouldn't be affected by expertise at all? Hav eyou ever played a toucher before? That change would mean a complete demolition of the build. There is no point in a toucher with 15 energy costing skills. Even 10 energy cost would be too much for this build. ry with a lower expertise. I am sure that the only good way to balance the build is to double the recharge time and increase the cast time a little. -- (talk) 11:02, 16 August 2006 (CDT) ::Mmmm, complete demolition of the build. Now you're singing my tune, baby. --Black Ark 11:35, 16 August 2006 (CDT) :::Why completely destroy a valid build? Should we also destroy Boonprots too? No. Just make this build more balanced. -- (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2006 (CDT) ::::Getting a bit defensive there, Gem. Touchy, I'd say. You've got one, haven't you? That's okay, you can admit it, I have a toucher too. Still, I don't mind admitting that the build's absolute cheese. Putting it together and using it is a no-brainer. It's hardly a challenge, mashing two buttons and perhaps a third when you're running low on energy. Blindness? Block/evade-stances? Who cares, touches ignore all of that. Armour? What's armour to health-stealing, then. Healing? That's okay, your attack heals you, and then some. It's utter, utter bunk. Build's gotta change, before R/N becomes the only thing you'll see around anymore, regardless of the possible character-combinations. But yeah, to get back to your question of two paragraphs back - I am indeed suggesting that touch skills wouldn't be affected by expertise. A separate category - "touch" - which is neither a skill nor a spell (or if I have to choose, a "touch-spell", at least it'll invite some new builds). I'm fine with the whole concept of health-stealing, the fact that it ignores armour and the fact that touches ignore things such as blindness, blocking and evading, but it should just be harder to spam them at a cost of a measily 5 energy. I'm saying this because of touchers specifically, whether you're upset by this or not. I don't see why other N/* or */N-builds should have to suffer just because touchers are no-brainers. If and when this happens, I'll gladly re-spec my toucher to become a hexing Barrager or something else instead. I like to play these builds which actually require some brain-activity, you see? Here's my two cents, plus some change I found under the sofa. --Black Ark 14:09, 16 August 2006 (CDT) :::::Yes I do have a toucher, but not PvP. She is PvE and rocks. And I do agree with 99% of the players, they should be nerfed. However, if expertise doesn't affect those skills anymore, they cost 15 energy. After touching 3 times you are out of energy. A toucher is completely useless even with a 10 energy costing touch. Therefor I don't think that anything skill type or expertise related is the solution. :::::Personally I would double the recharge of the skills. This wouldn't affect any other builds and would slow down the damage and healing of the touchers. Also increasing the casting time to atleast 1 second would help the victims avoid further touching as they can run further while the toucher is using the skill. With these 2 changes the build would be well balanced but not destroyed. -- (talk) 14:34, 16 August 2006 (CDT) ::::::I'm not that worried about them personally, they seem to be largely limted to RAs and possibly ABs and I don't consider either of them to be "real" PvP because you don't select your team. Even in RAs they're far less common than they used to be. --Xasxas256 18:16, 16 August 2006 (CDT) :::::::Don't know about PvP as I don't play it, but in PvE they are a bit too overpowered. Poor monsters have no chance. :(( -- (talk) 18:31, 16 August 2006 (CDT) ::::::::Sorry Gem I don't think people have much sympathy for monsters otherwise there would be calls for SS to be banned. :P Although I suppose they did change the AI for AoE spells, but that didn't change any skills just the AI behaviour. I guess people don't like monsters much although I do think Krumm is pretty cool. --Xasxas256 18:47, 16 August 2006 (CDT) ::::::First of all, I am not in favor of changing Expertise, nor changing the skills to spells. I agree that a toucher should continue to be a viable build. I would support a change of the two vampiric touch skills that increased their cooldown, although personally I think their activation time should remain the same. (Nearly all touch skills take 3/4 of a second to activate.) However, I think a cosmetic and mechanical change of creating a sub-category of touch (which more or less already exists on GuildWiki) under skills, along with it's own rules, would both solve the problem and add realism. The downside would be the magnitude of the change. The primary reason why I would support such a change would be to increase the number of counters - currently the only direct counter is Diversion, which is simply a generic counter versus spammers. All the other counters are either generic anti-melee (Snaring, Kiting) or generic shutdown (Energy denial, Blackout, Interruption, Knockdown.) Specific counters would round out the metagame, which is what I would like to see. Perhaps Nightfall will contain some.--Ender A 07:57, 6 September 2006 (CDT) ::::::There is now a direct counter to touch skills - "Can't Touch This!" - coming out with Nightfall. Yay!--Ender A 02:04, 24 September 2006 (CDT) Nerfing a touchie. Is it impossible? me and my friend were having a discussion and he said they really neeed to nerf touchies. I replied by saying How? Niether one of us could figure out how you would nerf touchies. Maybe some of the more Guild wars enlightened minds could hepl us figure out how you nerf a touchie? :A simple fix would be to make life stealing count as healing. Then, let Scourge Healing do the bulk of the work. This might push a little for more smite usage... --Theeth (talk) 20:49, 23 August 2006 (CDT) ::Or just read above... No need to restart the conversation each time. -- (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2006 (CDT) :::Vampiric Bite and Vampirit Touch = spells. It would be nice... or just increase their recharge time. --Taki 01:42, 27 August 2006 (CDT) ::: Frankly there are many ways whitch would count for a nerf. Make touch skills either Spells or Attack skills Making the vamp skills spells would obliterate Touchers perminantly, So attack skills might be alittle more pragmatic. that way you could empathy or backfire them either that or class the damage they deal as actual Damage so protection monk skills work (Life sheath, RoF, Protective sprit ect) or there life gained as healing so they for once actually feel the pain of deep wounds like the rest of the game population and have least one effective counter. Ansi 07:05, 3 September 2006 (CDT) ::::Actually, I'd like them as spells. Then I could use them with, say, Cultist's Fervor, and make that elite somewhat useful too. --Kit Engel 08:39, 6 September 2006 (CDT) If you "nerf" toucher rangers by making the skills "touch spells" then you will have to deal with "Touch Eles!" High energy storage with touch spells and Vampiric Spirit granted if they are spells they can be countered but if you don't, the damage is huge. I don't know how well that kind of build would work, but I don't think touchers are gonna get nerfed anyway so w/e.-Onlyashadow 09:00, 6 September 2006 (CDT) I would be more worried about touch necros if touch skills become touch spells. Dark Aura then Cultist Fervor follow up with touch and bite causes 120+ damage per spike. Touch and Bite will cost only 8 energy to the necro and it hurts a hell lot more than a touch ranger. In addition it causes PBAOE damage. That can kill most common characters in 4 touch/bite. --Bioharzard 18:08, 17 September 2006 (CDT) :Heh. Touchers stink, and they are no longer even relevant in HA and ABs. :) Touch skills are skills (and not spells) for a reason. They will never be made spells. Making Expertise apply only to ranger skills is to nerf the ranger class itself. Just cripple the toucher and move away from him for God's sake, it's that easy. --Karlos 18:41, 17 September 2006 (CDT) :Problem with that strategy is that touchys carry plague touch. If I ever get crippled(or any other condition for that matter), I just find the nearest enemy to slap it on. --Evls Pwn 22:52, 23 September 2006 (CDT) ::The slight problem is that while tring to reach that enemy, *you're still crippled*. The best way to wreck a touchie is a mesmer with these 2 skills: Diversion and Arcane Larceny. That way you always shut down Offering Of Blood, as it's their only "spell", and their touch skills are inactive for ages. Plus both skill work nicely on most foes, especially Whammos if you Larceny Mending then strip their enchantment. Ti add damage, put in some degen and they are stuffed. The problem is that touchies are just cheesy in RA as the chance of a shutdown mesmer is low.193.61.111.50 10:07, 28 September 2006 (CDT) Sword as right-hand weapon Should +5 energy sword with a fortitude or armor mod be lsited on weapons? i know this is a cmmon weapon choice Counters vailidity "The Ranger spirit Muddy Terrain can impair their running skills allowing range attacks to eliminate their threat." Who the hell wrote that crap? Thats clearly written by a toucher making stuff up Muddy terrain slows down ALL creatures and only has a 10% slowdown. It's designed to STOP kiting not aid it. 10% slowdown will buy you 3 seconds tops after this has expired you've made your own tomb for the toucher as you cannot kite away from them. Malaise and wither are also frankly crap as counters. Obviously Written by someone who has only lightly glanced at that skill discription (Malase/wither Ends when your targets energy reaches 0) and you know touchers generally have a low amount of max energy anyway and only use 5 energy per/bite. they will quickly flatline there energy and regain it with there elite. Then again I guess if your an idiotic toucher that idea wouldn't occur to them. Mind wrack would be more effective that this stupid idea. :It was suggested to stack Malaise with Panic, which doesn't end at 0 energy, to keep it that way. By the way, the idea would be to make them use OoB for energy, but you have Diversion on them so it gets knocked out for ages. Then you re-ED them and hit them with attack spells.193.61.111.50 "Any warrior can out-last a single Touch Ranger by good use of as little as Healing Signet and regular attacks." And again wrong this is easly proven through maths. Healing signet at rank 12 tactics, heals 130hp every 6seconds a single Toucher with vamp touch ALONE in those same 6 seconds steals 195 "Damage" And thats the warrior NOT attacking but healing him/herself constantly. I will delete this misinformation unless somone can proove me wrong on this. Ansi 07:37, 3 September 2006 (CDT) :Go ahead and do it. :) -- (talk) 11:53, 3 September 2006 (CDT) :Yeh, everything you've listed is wrong — Skuld 12:14, 3 September 2006 (CDT) :: I dont know about Muddy Terrian not being help. The fact that speed bosts have no effect makes it much easier to kite.--69.107.109.252 21:34, 4 September 2006 (CDT) ::: It doesn't Muddy terrain won't help people to kite because the kiter is also slowed. Muddy terrain help 3+ rangers to kill a called target before they reach your location, and that isn't kiting. The reason of not helping is because you have to stop to shoot but the toucher doesn't, so, they will eventually reach you before you can kill it. -- Cwingnam2000 21:45, 4 September 2006 (CDT) Disagree about Malaise and Wither. Malaise easily reapplied. The point is to bring the toucher's energy down to 0. After that the ranger needs at least 5 seconds before he can use Offering of Blood, which is long enough to refresh Malaise. Please refrain from slinging insults even though you might feel strongly about this. zaishen 08:44, 6 September 2006 (CDT) :True. Go ahead and add it back. -- (talk) 15:47, 6 September 2006 (CDT) Update Under the Thursday, September 14th update they changed quite a few skills recharge time. One thing they did not change was Vampiric Touch's recharge time. If Anet was going to nerf the touchie, wouldn't it hav been during this update they would've done it. :They seem to think that the build isn't too overpoerew. I don't know how it is in PvP (although quite many goof PvPers have told that it is easy to counter and not bad) but it's a bit too much in PvE. :Note: Don't start a new discussion about possible ways to nerf touchers or ways to do it. Currently Anet is not going to do anything about them. -- (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2006 (CDT) Anet have said before on commentary of patches they don't want to change the game for just once area of play. Touchers are uber overpowered in Allance battle and are a minor pest in places like the jade quarry and fort aspenwood but they don't cause any problems in PvE (other than certain touchers inflexablity and lack of intellegence but nerfing can't fix that) Nor are they a common occurence in HoH so anet won't nerf them unless they become more prevelant in other areas of gameplay... A good exsample of what Anet thinks is an overpowered skill would be EoE, They nerfed that because it prooved extremely effective (in some cases unfairly so) in all areas of pvp play (Teamwipes in AB, Aspenwood & HoH.) in addition to many aspects of PvE play (Shiro'kens, Urgoz ect) So as such it got a nerf. Ansi 07:32, 19 September 2006 (CDT) :EoE was also exploitable, which was causing some additional problems. (people were using guest privs in opposing alliance guilds to access opposing teams ab's (or they were just griefing their own alliance). They would then Set EoE (Which their teamates could not destroy) and proceed to use sac spells to kill themselves. Usually this was a team of 4 and would do it a few times before the minute pre battle timer. Giving the opposing team points and having their team start with a large disadvantage. The nerf happened within a week of this greif method becoming widespread. Touchers on the other hand are annoying, and hard to kill... but not truly overpowered. Spikes and Crips were still effective. They just could not be killed using pressure. Now with the inclusion of Cant Touch This (see below), there will be a defense against even that. --Midnight08 09:37, 20 September 2006 (CDT)